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Podcast Conversation · Ryan Holiday × Henrik Werdelin & Jeremy Utley · May 2026

You can't outsource wisdom.

Bestselling author Ryan Holiday brings two thousand years of Stoic philosophy to bear on the AI moment — and finds that the questions we think are unprecedented have already been asked, lived through, and answered.

2,000+yrs
how long humans have been grappling with technological disruption and "what is uniquely mine to do."
"This is the most perennial of all the emotions and feelings — the idea that I don't know how things are going to turn out." — Holiday
$0
the marginal cost of telling an AI "this isn't good enough — do it again."
"To an AI, it's another fifteen seconds. To a human, it's another two weeks of work. So why aren't you using the Kissinger trick?"
The opening question Holiday wrote in his newsletter and brought into this conversation: "The premise of AI is more, more, more, more. I can do more work. But if I think about what I actually value — being a father, being present — am I more of what I value? Or just more in general?"

Four ideas the Stoics give us for the AI age

Concept 01

01Change is the only constant

We tend to picture the past as stable — ancient Rome as a fixed thing, the 1950s as a fixed thing — but every era was itself the cutting-edge future. Marcus Aurelius writes about the pace of change more than almost any other theme. The feeling that "this time is different" is the most perennial feeling humans have.

Holiday's reframe: when you say "AI is unprecedented," you're committing what's basically a recency bias. Every wave of technology has felt that way. The Industrial Revolution was unprecedented. Electricity was unprecedented. The spreadsheet was unprecedented. The Internet was unprecedented. In each case, traditions felt fragile, generations felt at odds, the world felt as if it were speeding up.

Marcus Aurelius's rebuttal to the anxiety of change: "It would take an idiot to feel distressed or indignant about change — as if any of it lasts." The status quo you're trying to preserve was itself a product of change. You weren't, and then you were. You were five, then ten, then twenty-five. You are change.

"Every time in history was basically — with the exception of maybe the dark ages, and they didn't know they were living in the dark ages — the most advanced time in human history."
Ryan Holiday

The Stoic posture is not emotionlessness. It's an even keel. "The rock that the waves crash over," Marcus writes — until the sea falls still around it. The waves don't stop. The rock doesn't move.

Every era felt unprecedented

Ancient Rome "unprecedented" ~170 AD Industrial Rev. "unprecedented" 1820 Spreadsheet "unprecedented" 1979 Internet "unprecedented" 1995 AI — 2026 "unprecedented" now
Marcus Aurelius wrote his meditations on change ~170 AD. Every named era since has felt to its inhabitants the way ours feels to us. The label travels.
Concept 02

02You can't outsource wisdom

Seneca tells the story of Calvisius Sabinus, a wealthy Roman who wanted to seem smart. So he bought a collection of educated slaves and had them feed him quotes at dinner parties. A friend, observing this, asked: "Have you ever thought about taking up wrestling?" The man scoffed — "I'm too old." The friend's reply: "Ah, but your slaves are still young."

Seneca's parable, mapped

What you can outsource
  • Information lookup
  • A quote in your ear
  • The first draft
  • The summary
  • The polish
  • The recommendation
What you can't
  • The mind that produces these
  • Judgment in edge cases
  • Clarified thinking
  • The Henry Kissinger sense for "no, do better"
  • Knowing when a quote is bullshit
  • Wisdom itself
Seneca, ~65 AD: "No man was ever wise by chance." Wisdom is a byproduct of the work — not a substance the work delivers.

Seneca's point: wisdom and physical fitness work the same way. Wisdom is the byproduct of the work you do. It's not a thing you can be a conduit for. Just as you can't outsource exercise, you can't outsource the becoming.

Holiday's bridge to AI: "You can have ChatGPT write your essay. But the point was never to write the essay. The point was to be the person on the other side of writing the essay — the person who has clarified their thinking."

"You think you can outsource wisdom. But you can't outsource wisdom just as you can't outsource exercise."
Seneca — via Ryan Holiday

This isn't an argument against tools. We surrender lots of cognitive work to GPS and we're fine — Holiday cheerfully admits he's "surrendered whatever navigational ability I had almost entirely to my phone." But he wouldn't call himself a navigator. There's a difference between access to information and being the kind of person whose mind that information forms. The second is what AI cannot give you.

Concept 03

03AI is a mirror — it amplifies what's underneath

Jeremy Utley's running observation, sharpened by Holiday: AI doesn't push people in a single direction. It amplifies whoever sits at the keyboard. If you're a satisficer, AI will get you to "good enough" much faster. If you're a striver, you've never had a more brutal red-team partner in your life.

Herbert Simon's term — satisficing — describes the human tendency to settle at "good enough." It's fine most of the time. But for anyone trying to innovate, it's a vicious cognitive bias. And AI's defining property is that it accelerates whatever bias you bring to it. The output looks plausible. It will tell you what you want to hear. It will flatter you.

This is the Stoic warning about ego in modern clothes: an egotistical person is easy to manipulate — make them think it was their idea, indulge their flattery, agree quickly. AI is, in Holiday's words, "really smart people coding a really smart machine to prey on precisely that vulnerability."

But the same machine, asked the right way, becomes the best editor most people will ever afford. Holiday uses it on his own paragraphs: "Tell me what's wrong with this. Tell me how it could be better. Tell me where I have errors. Tell me how it could be shorter." The same prompts he gives his human editor — at a fraction of the cost, and at any hour.

"It's going to make you more of what you want to be. If you want to be lazy, it will help you be far lazier than ever. If you want a thorough teardown of where this paragraph sags, it will be more brutal than your most brutal human editor."
Jeremy Utley

Same tool, two trajectories

Satisficer
Takes the first answer
"Good enough — ship it. Same thing they did with Google five years ago. AI just got them to mediocre faster."
↔
Striver
Pushes back, asks for evidence, demands sources
"Tell me what's wrong with this. Show me the source. Where do I have errors? Make it tighter."
Same model. Same prompt. Same compute budget. The output diverges entirely based on the operator. AI amplifies; it doesn't decide.

The practical implication for the cognitive-offloading debate: Holiday and Utley both reject the question as it's usually asked. It's almost never an honest question, Utley argues — it's a conclusion someone is announcing about why they're disengaging. The real choice isn't use AI / don't use AI. It's get educated about it or get blindsided by it. Even if you choose never to use it personally, the people around you will, and you'll be evaluating their work without knowing what AI-flavored mediocrity looks like.

Concept 04

04The "Do Better" protocol

The single most practical takeaway of the conversation — Holiday's Kissinger anecdote. A staffer hands Kissinger a report. Without reading it, Kissinger sends it back: "This is wrong. Do it better." The staffer returns with a tighter version. Kissinger again, unread: "Still wrong. Do it better." Only on the third pass does he say: "Okay. Now I'm going to read it."

The Kissinger ladder, applied to AI

Draft 1
First pass — plausible, hedged, flattering
↓
"Do better."
Tighter. More specific. Some sources surface.
↓
"Do better."
Now worth reading. Worth the price of admission.
✓
"Humans, just like machines, don't always give you everything they've got the first time. There's always room for refinement." — Holiday

Why the trick works: most agents — human or machine — front-load effort to the level that gets them past the gate. They reserve their best. The act of refusing the first answer signals that the gate is higher than they assumed. You don't even need to read the first draft to know it's not the best the system has in it.

Holiday's adaptation for AI is mechanical. The cost is zero. There's no ego to bruise. There's no working-hours overhead. The worst thing that happens is you burn another fifteen seconds of compute. You can do this five times in a row.

Utley's refinement: don't say "this is wrong" — the AI may flip to the opposite extreme to please you. Better phrasing: "I think you can do better." Or, more pointedly: "It feels like you didn't exert sufficient effort and thoughtfulness to do an exceptional job here."

"There's no cost in me calling bullshit. If I say 'no, no, that's not right,' the worst thing that's gonna happen is it's gonna waste some compute doing it again."
Ryan Holiday

The essential skill of the era, in Holiday's framing, isn't prompt engineering or coding — it's a finely-tuned bullshit detector. The "Do Better" protocol is one of its sharpest tools.

Cited in the conversation

The thinkers Holiday leans on

A short index of the names and stories that surface across the hour. Worth knowing the source material.

Seneca
Roman Stoic · ~65 AD
The Calvisius Sabinus parable: the wealthy Roman who hired educated slaves to seem wise. "No man was ever wise by chance."
Marcus Aurelius
Emperor / Stoic · ~170 AD
Meditations returns again and again to change as the most universal fact. The image of the rock that the waves crash over.
Epictetus
Former-slave philosopher
The teacher of adaptability: train yourself so that whatever happens, you can say "that's just what I was looking for."
Henry Kissinger
Statesman
"This is wrong. Do it better." The two-page lesson in extracting more from any collaborator — and now, any AI.
Gregg Popovich
Spurs head coach
"We're not holding the plane. And if you try to make it, you're fired. Your family is more important — take a commercial flight." Culture by intervention.
Clayton Christensen
HBS · "How Will You Measure Your Life"
Humans orient toward the measurable. Work has quarters. Family doesn't. On the margin, we invest where feedback is loudest — and AI turbocharges that asymmetry.
Herbert Simon
Nobel laureate · cognitive science
Coined satisficing — the human bias toward "good enough." AI's defining property: it makes good-enough cheaper, which is fine if you're not trying to innovate.
Steve Jobs
Apple · via Walter Isaacson
Audacious-goal practice: look someone in the eye and say "don't be afraid." A predecessor of "I think you can do better."
Robert Green
Writer · Holiday's mentor
The model for diligent research — discarding most of what a research assistant brings, demanding sources, refusing to use a quote until you can see the book it came from.
The question Holiday opened with — and never quite resolved

"Am I more of what I value?"

The opportunity cost of being an unwired human

The opening of the conversation, and the thread running underneath all four concepts: AI lets you do more. The premise is more, more, more. But Holiday's check is one most of us avoid asking — am I more of what I actually value? More father? More friend? More present?

The framing he keeps returning to: in this age, the opportunity cost of just being a human — sitting with your kids, putting the phone down, choosing not to be at the desk — is higher than it has ever been. It is an arms race we aren't equipped for. An unfair fight. The dream of technology was once a twenty-hour week. The reality is a worker calculating whether her four-x productivity should buy her a Friday off — and whether her manager will allow it.

"If I was suddenly getting more and more effective at what I did, and my boss was effectively punishing me for having done that — what kind of overall message am I sending to the rest of the organization?"

The Stoic answer isn't a formula. It is a posture: focus on what's in your control. Notice that most of the macro story — the economy, the politics, the trajectory of the technology — is not. Your inner emotions, your decisions, your priorities, the way you treat the person who just told you they can do their job in two days instead of five: those are. The Popovich answer to Mike Brown — "don't take five minutes, take as much time as you need, just catch a commercial flight" — is the kind of choice the Stoics would recognize.

And the most practical bequest Holiday leaves with his own kids isn't a habit or a tool. It's a meta-skill: how do you teach them to figure things out? Because every specific thing he could teach them will be obsolete. The capacity to learn — to push back, to refine, to call bullshit, to do it again — won't be.

Source: "You Can't Outsource Wisdom: Bestselling Author Ryan Holiday on What the Stoics Have to Say About AI." Hosts: Henrik Werdelin & Jeremy Utley. Quotes lightly condensed for readability.
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Card · May 2026